Greenwald also discusses Reuters’ report on the Drug Enforcement Agency spying on Americans.
August 5, 2013
|
The
Obama administration has announced it will keep 19 diplomatic posts in
North Africa and the Middle East closed for up to a week, due to fears
of a possible militant threat. On Sunday, Senator Saxby Chambliss, the
top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said the decision
to close the embassies was based on information collected by the
National Security Agency. "If we did not have these programs, we simply
would not be able to listen in on the bad guys," Chambliss said, in a
direct reference to increasing debate over widespread spying of all
Americans revealed by Glenn Greenwald of The Guardian. "Nobody has ever
questioned or disputed that the U.S. government, like all governments
around the world, ought to be eavesdropping and monitoring the
conversations of people who pose an actual threat to the United States
in terms of plotting terrorist attacks," Greenwald says. Pointing to the
recent revelations by leaker Edward Snowden that he has reported on,
Greenwald explains, "Here we are in the midst of one of the most intense
debates and sustained debates that we’ve had in a very long time in
this country over the dangers of excess surveillance, and suddenly, an
administration that has spent two years claiming that it has decimated
al-Qaeda decides that there is this massive threat that involves the
closing of embassies and consulates around the world. ... The
controversy is over the fact that they are sweeping up billions and
billions of emails and telephone calls every single day from people
around the world and in the United States who have absolutely nothing to
do with terrorism." Greenwald also discusses the NSA’s XKeyscore
Internet tracking program, Reuters’ report on the Drug Enforcement
Agency spying on Americans, and the conviction of Army whistleblower
Bradley Manning.
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org,The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman. I want to go back to Senator Saxby Chambliss, the top
Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, to get Glenn
Greenwald’s response. During an appearance on MSNBC’s Meet the Press, he said the NSA surveillance
programs had uncovered information about the threats that prompted the
U.S. to close 19 embassies in North Africa and Middle East.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS: These
programs are controversial. We understand that. They’re very sensitive.
But they’re also very important, because they are what lead us to have
the—or allow us to have the ability to gather this chatter that I
referred to. If we did not have these programs, then we simply wouldn’t
be able to listen in on the bad guys. And I will say that it’s the 702
program that has allowed us to pick up on this chatter. That’s the
program that allows us to listen overseas, not on domestic soil, but
overseas.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Senator Chambliss. Glenn Greenwald, your response?
GLENN GREENWALD: You
know, it’s so ludicrous. For eight straight years, literally,
Democrats, every time there was a terrorist alert or a terrorist
advisory issued by the United States government in the middle of a
debate over one of the Bush-Cheney civil liberties abuses, would accuse
the United States government and the national security state of
exaggerating terrorism threats, of manipulating advisories, of hyping
the dangers of al-Qaeda, in order to distract attention away from their
abuses and to scare the population into submitting to whatever it is
they wanted to do. And so, here we are in the midst of, you know, one of
the most intense debates and sustained debates that we’ve had in a very
long time in this country over the dangers of excess surveillance, and
suddenly an administration that has spent two years claiming that it has
decimated al-Qaeda decides that there is this massive threat that
involves the closing of embassies and consulates throughout the world.
And within literally an amount of hours, the likes of Saxby Chambliss
and Lindsey Graham join with the White House and Democrats in
Congress—who, remember, are the leading defenders of the NSA at this point—to exploit that terrorist threat and to insist that it shows that the NSA and these programs are necessary.
What that has to do with the ongoing controversy about the NSA is
completely mystifying. Nobody has ever questioned or disputed that the
U.S. government, like all governments around the world, ought to be
eavesdropping and monitoring the conversations of people who pose an
actual threat to the United States in terms of plotting terrorist
attacks. The controversy is over the fact that they are sweeping up
billions and billions of emails and telephone calls every single day
from people around the world and in the United States who have
absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. And, if anything, the only
thing that that controversy—the warning has to do with the current
controversy is that the argument that a lot of analysts have made, very
persuasively, is that when you have an agency that collects everything,
it actually becomes harder, not easier, to detect actual terrorist plots
and to find the actual terrorists. And if this agency really were
devoted, if these surveillance programs were really devoted to finding
terrorism, they would be much more directed and discriminating. But
they’re not. They’re indiscriminate and limitless, and that’s one of the
problems.
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn Greenwald, you appeared on ABC’s This Week on
Sunday. After speaking with you, the host, Martha Raddatz, asked House
Intelligence Committee member Democratic Representative Dutch
Ruppersberger to respond to your claim that members of Congress have had
difficulty getting details of NSA programs. Let’s go to his response.
REP. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER: Since
this incident occurred with Snowden, we’ve had three different hearings
for members of our Democratic caucus and of the Republican caucus,
where General Alexander has come with his deputy, Chris Inglis, to ask
any questions that people have as it relates to this information. And we
will continue to do that, because what we’re trying to do now is to get
the American public to know more about what’s going on, that NSA is
following the law, and that we have checks and balances. We have the
courts. We have both the Senate and House Intelligence Committee. We
have Justice Department. We have checks and balances here to make sure
that NSA does not violate the law in what
they’re doing. And, you know, since these two programs have come into
effect, especially the metadata, there has not been one incident of any
member of the NSA breaking any law whatsoever.
But we can do better. I have to educate my caucus more, the Democratic
caucus. And we’re trying to declassify as much as we can.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Democratic Congressmember Dutch Ruppersberger. Glenn Greenwald, your response?
GLENN GREENWALD: I
hope Dutch Ruppersberger takes a much more prominent role in the
political debate, because he’s basically the embodiment of the rotted
soul that has become the Democratic Party. Not only does his district
encompass Fort Meade, which is the headquarters of the NSA, which explains in part why he is this stalwart, steadfast NSA loyalist,
but he is almost drowning in cash from the defense and intelligence
industries. He’s the second leading recipient in the entire United
States House of Representatives of money from those industries. And he
then gets placed on the very committee that the Church Committee created
in the mid-1970s to exercise oversight over the agency and the
community that basically ensures that his coffers are stuffed full of
cash. So of course he becomes the leading spokesperson for that agency
and then goes around defending it and saying they’ve done nothing wrong
and they’re vital and indispensable to our national security. That’s the
leading Democrat on that committee.
But
the thing that he was asked about, in terms of members of Congress
being blocked from information, basic information, isn’t my claim.
Members of Congress came to me with his grievance and asked me to write
about it. And they gave me correspondence between themselves and the
Intelligence Committee. And what they were asking for was not very
sensitive information; they were asking for the most basic things,
things they read about in media accounts, such as the ruling by theFISA court in 2011 that much of what the NSA has
been doing, spying on Americans domestically, is a violation of the
Constitution and the law. There really is, Amy, an 85-page, 86-page
ruling issued by the FISA court that says the
government has been systematically breaking the law and violating the
Fourth Amendment in how it spies on us. And not only can we not see that
ruling, because it remains a secret at the insistence of the Obama
administration, even our elected representatives in Congress, who we’re
told are exercising robust oversight, are blocked from seeing it. And
that’s the correspondence that we published that was given to me by
various House members. So, yeah, they do get meetings with General
Alexander where they get to raise their hand and ask questions, and
General Alexander says, "We’re violating—we’re not violating the law,
and we are strictly adhering to what our guidelines are." He can say
whatever he wants. They want to get the actual documents. That’s how you
exercise oversight. And they’re being denied it, about the most basic
information about both the NSA and the FISA court.
AMY GOODMAN: Let
me ask you something, the former Alaska Senator Mike Gravel, who was
the one who got the Pentagon Papers put into the congressional record,
then had them published by Beacon Press, the whole thousands of pages,
he said that the senators who have been really sounding the alarms,
people like Senator Udall, Senator Wyden, of course, the ones who have
been warning Americans in sort of cryptic ways, saying, "You’ve got to
find out about this," could actually go much further now that so much
has been released by you and even the Obama administration.
GLENN GREENWALD: Right. Well, there was a—there was an
article in
Foreign Policy magazine
over the weekend the Yale Law professor, Bruce Ackerman, that makes the
same point. Remember, United States senators have full constitutional
immunity against prosecution for anything that they say on the floor of
the Senate. And Daniel Ellsberg, when he was trying to get people to
read the Pentagon Papers, actually wanted to get Mike Gravel and other
senators to go to the floor of the Senate and read the Pentagon Papers,
because they would have been immune from prosecution.
You
know, as much as I like the fact that Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have
been sounding the alarms for a couple of years, winking and hinting at
Americans that they would be shocked to learn all the things that the
Obama administration is doing in secret, they didn’t have the courage to
tell us what those things were that they thought we should know. It
took Mr. Snowden to come forward, who doesn’t have immunity, and tell
us. And interestingly, the very first interview I ever did on ABCabout
this case, I was followed by Senator Udall, and they asked Senator
Udall about Edward Snowden. And the first thing he said was, "I deplore
his leaks." So, you know, Mark Udall didn’t have the courage to do what
Edward Snowden did. He tried to get the country to know there was
something going on that we should know but didn’t come forward and say,
even though he had this protection.
But
I think Senator Gravel and Bruce Ackerman are absolutely right: There
are all sorts of ways that if Ron Wyden and Mark Udall and others really
believe, as they’re saying, that there are serious abuses going on in
the NSA, they could let us know, and could do
so with total protection, not—unlike me, who’s reporting it and being
threatened with imprisonment, or Mr. Snowden, who’s been charged for
letting us know. They could actually exercise their constitutional
prerogatives as a senator and tell us what they think that we ought to
know. And they ought to do a lot more of that.
AMY GOODMAN: How are you being threatened, Glenn?
GLENN GREENWALD: Well,
I mean, I’ve, you know, had various politicians and various journalists
advocate that I’m violating the law, that I ought to be arrested.
There’s been all sorts of debates about—you know, with graphics on the
screen of CNN and ABC and
other places for months: "Should Glenn Greenwald be prosecuted?"
Obviously there are theories that the Obama administration has embraced
that make investigative journalism a crime. So I’m not saying that I’m
being formally threatened, but I’ve certainly been threatened openly by
people who exercise a great deal of influence in Washington and who seem
to be channeling what at least some of official Washington thinks.
That’s what I’m referring to.
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn,
you were supposed to testify last week before Congress. That hearing
was canceled because President Obama was meeting with Democrats. But
instead, you released a major piece. And I want to talk about that in a
second, but will you be testifying before Congress again? And would you
come into the United States to testify? Last week it was going to be by
Skype.
GLENN GREENWALD: So,
the hearing has—I don’t know if it’s been finalized, but I believe it’s
been rescheduled for September the 17th or 18th. They definitely intend
to reschedule that hearing that was canceled when President Obama
suddenly developed a newfound interest in speaking with House Democrats,
whom he’s traditionally ignored, which caused the cancellation of that
hearing. So, I believe that it is being rescheduled. Whether I would
come and physically appear or appear remotely by video depends on a
number of factors, including my schedule, the reporting that I’m doing
at the time, as well as the—the legal advices that I get from my
lawyers. So, we’ll see whether or not that hearing takes place with me
remotely there or physically there, but I absolutely intend to testify.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, that hearing last week was canceled, but minutes before the Senate hearing took place on that same day, you
revealed details about a secret
NSA program
called XKeyscore that’s allowed analysts to search, with no prior
authorization, through vast databases containing emails, online chats
and the browsing histories of millions of people. One of the top-secret
documents you obtained described how the XKeyscore program, quote,
"searches within bodies of emails, webpages and documents, including the
'To, From, CC,
BCC lines' and the 'Contact
Us' pages on websites." Another slide shows how the XKeyscore program
allows an analyst to learn the IP addresses of every person who visits
any website the analyst specifies. Can you lay out what it is you
revealed last week?
GLENN GREENWALD: Well, the best description of that program that we revealed comes from theNSA,
which says that it essentially allows an analyst to search and then to
acquire nearly everything that a user does on the Internet. It’s
intended to be a comprehensive program. And within the database of
XKeyscore is every month, 30—every 30 days, 40 billion Internet records
that are put into this database on top of what’s already there, and what
any analyst sitting at his or her terminal with access to this program
can do is what you just described, which is—they don’t even need to know
your email address. So, if they do, they can find all your emails and
read them. They can see what search terms you’ve entered in Google, what
Internet websites you’ve visited, what Microsoft Word documents you’ve
sent, what Google Earth images you’ve surveyed—essentially, as the NSAsays, everything that you can do on the Internet.
But
the real issue is, is that Mr. Snowden, in his first interview with us,
made the claim, which turned out to be one of the more controversial
and high-impact claims, that any—that as an analyst sitting at his desk,
he could wiretap the Internet activity of anyone, including the
president. And he was attacked as being a liar by the GOP chairman
of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers, and others for having
said that. And this is—the XKeyscore program essentially allows a
person to do exactly that.
There are legal constraints on what an analyst can do when targeting a U.S. person. They need to go to the rubber-stamping FISA court
first before they target a U.S. person. But even within the XKeyscore
database, there are all sorts of communications that Americans have,
both with foreign nationals, which does not require a warrant in order
for an analyst to intercept and read, or even U.S. persons-to-persons.
They try, they say, to filter out domestic communications. But as The New York Times’ Jim Risen said on a CNN segment
that I did with him last week, it’s technologically impossible to
filter out all of it. Much of even purely domestic communication ends up
being put into these databases.
And the key issue with it, Amy is that when you sit at your terminal as an NSA analyst,
and you want to go and search, you don’t need anybody’s approval.
Nobody looks over your shoulder to see what you’re doing. You don’t need
to justify it to anybody. You just enter what’s called justification,
three or four words about why you’re doing it, and it then processes it.
No court needs to approve it. No supervisor approves it. There’s
post-search supervisory auditing, which is extremely random and
scattered and not very rigorous. But there’s no pre-search approval
requirements, which means an analyst can invade all of this incredibly
sensitive online activity anytime they decide to do so.
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn, I also wanted to ask you about a new
story you
just tweeted about that was published today by Reuters. The article
begins, quote, "A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is
funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps,
informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities
across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of
Americans.
“Although
these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed
by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to
conceal how such investigations truly begin—not only from defense
lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges. ...
"The unit of the DEA that distributes the information is called the Special Operations Division, orSOD."
Glenn Greenwald, can you talk more about this?
GLENN GREENWALD: So
this should be a huge scandal for the following reason. The essence of
the Constitution is that the government cannot obtain evidence or
information about you unless it has probable cause to believe that
you’ve engaged in a crime and then goes to a court and gets a warrant.
And only then is that evidence usable in a prosecution against you. What
this secret agency is doing, according to Reuters, it is circumventing
that process by gathering all kinds of information without any court
supervision, without any oversight at all, using surveillance
technologies and other forms of domestic spying. And then, when it gets
this information that it believes it can be used in a criminal
prosecution, it knows that that information can’t be used in a criminal
prosecution because it’s been acquired outside of the legal and
constitutional process, so they cover up how they really got it, and
they pretend—they make it seem as though they really got it through
legal and normal means, by then going back and retracing the
investigation, once they already have it, and re-acquiring it so that it
looks to defense counsel and even to judges and prosecutors like it
really was done in the constitutionally permissible way. So they’re
prosecuting people and putting people in prison for using evidence that
they’ve acquired illegally, which they’re then covering up and lying
about and deceiving courts into believing was actually acquired
constitutionally. It’s a full-frontal assault on the Fourth, Fifth and
Sixth Amendments and on the integrity of the judicial process, because
they’re deceiving everyone involved in criminal prosecutions about how
this information has been obtained.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally,
Glenn, since we have last spoken, Bradley Manning has been convicted,
not of the most serious crime, aiding the enemy, but on about 20 other
counts, a number of them involving espionage. You have written
extensively about Bradley Manning. Edward Snowden—and then the whole
Edward Snowden story exploded. And to show Edward Snowden understood how
seriously he would be treated, you know, it was in the midst—he came
out in the midst of, you know, the lead-up to the court-martial and the
court-martial itself. Can you comment on Bradley Manning’s convictions?
GLENN GREENWALD: Bradley
Manning is a national hero, who deserves all kinds of medals and
national gratitude, not criminal prosecution, let alone decades in
prison. He exposed serious war crimes, all kinds of deceit and—on the
part of not only the United States government, but governments around
the world. Even Bill Keller, the executive editor of The New York Times,
a vociferous critic of WikiLeaks, credits the publication of those
diplomatic cables with exposing corruption about tyrannies in the Arab
world, including in Tunisia, that helped spark the Arab Spring, one of
the greatest democratic revolutions of the last several centuries. And
clearly his intent was to spark exactly the kind of reform that he was
hoping to see in the wake of, for example, publication of the video
showing the Apache helicopter killing of journalists and unarmed
civilians and rescuers in Baghdad.
And
what this Bradley Manning trial really is about is about creating and
bolstering this climate of fear in the United States where would-be
whistleblowers are afraid to come forward and blow the whistle on what
they learn is being done by their government that is corrupt and illegal
and deceitful, to basically enable the government license to break the
law by—in scaring and intimidating whistleblowers and journalists from
reporting on it. And one of the things that has made Mr. Snowden’s
behavior so powerful, and the reason it has scared the United States
government so much, is because it shows that people are willing to defy
that climate of fear. And he’s in Russia and has sought asylum elsewhere
precisely because the U.S., as Daniel Ellsberg said, is no longer a
safe place for whistleblowers. But the case of Bradley Manning is a huge
national disgrace. But I think it will be beneficial, in a tragic way,
in showing what the true character of the United States is with regard
to transparency and accountability.
AMY GOODMAN: Bradley
Manning’s mother expressed support for her son in her first interview
since his arrest more than three years ago. Susan Manning lives in Wales
and suffers from health problems that makes travel to the U.S.
difficult. Speaking to the British Daily Mail, she addressed
Bradley directly, saying, quote, "Never give up hope, son. I know I may
never see you again but I know you will be free one day. I pray it is
soon. I love you, Bradley and I always will." Glenn, as we wrap up this
discussion, when you released the video of Edward Snowden and you went
to Hong Kong and you released story after story about his
revelations—and I want to ask if you’re going to be releasing more—did
you ever expect it would come to this point several months later, two
months later?
GLENN GREENWALD: You
know, honestly, I didn’t. When—I mean, I’ve been writing about
surveillance issues for a long time. And for a lot of different reasons,
sometimes it’s difficult to make these stories resonate, even when
you’re writing about very severe abuses. I mean, remember, in 2005, The New York Times revealed
that the Bush administration was spying on Americans in exactly the way
that the law makes a felony, and not only were there no prosecutions
from that, but the Democrats and the Republicans in Congress joined
together, with very little public backlash, and essentially passed two
bills in 2007 and 2008 that legalized that criminal eavesdropping
program. And so, the concern, from the very first moment that I talked
to Mr. Snowden—I remember really well the first conversation I had with
him, and he was very clear about the fact that he had no fear about
anything in terms of what he wanted to do, except for one, and that one
fear he said that he had was that he would essentially sacrifice his
liberty and his life and unravel his entire existence in order to make
these disclosures and that these disclosures would be met by apathy and
indifference on the part of the American public, the U.S. media and the
political class. And so, from the beginning, our discussions were always
about how to make sure that that didn’t happen, that people understood
the true seriousness and the magnitude of what it was that was being
revealed.
And
I have to say, I mean, two months later, to watch, you know,
essentially this extraordinary and unprecedented coalition of
conservatives and liberals and tea party and centrists join together in
the Congress and defy the White House and the leadership for serious
reform in a real way, to see huge shifts in public opinion, to see the
national security state for the first time really on its heels, to see
numerous countries around the world defying the United States, to see a
worldwide debate in multiple countries around the globe over what the
United States is doing, to see huge amounts of public support for what
Mr. Snowden has done in ways that I think will be consciousness-shifting
on lots of levels, has not only been really gratifying, but, yeah,
honestly, it has been surprising. And I haven’t fully been able to stop
and think about, you know, and analyze all the reasons why it has
resonated this way, but clearly there was something kind of in the ether
that was ready for this sort of political controversy. And I think that
you do see enormous amounts of impact in the way that people are
thinking and mobilizing, not just about surveillance, but about the role
of the government and secrecy and the United States in general.
AMY GOODMAN: And will you be releasing more information?
GLENN GREENWALD: Yeah, there’s a lot more stories that I’m working on right this very minute.
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn
Greenwald, I want to thank you for being with us and spending this
time, columnist on civil liberties and U.S. national security issues
for
The Guardian, former constitutional lawyer. Glenn Greenwald first published Edward Snowden’s revelations about the
NSA surveillance programs and continues to write extensively on the topic. His most recent
article, we’ll link to, "Members of Congress Denied Access to Basic Information About
NSA."
This is Democracy Now! When
we come back, we’ll talk about the inauguration of a new president in
Iran, what it means for the United States. Stay with us.